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August 06, 2008

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This reminds me of a This American Life story about an Oklahoma plant using cheap labor from India on American soil.
http://thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1220

I'm a bit sceptical about your claim that

"Especially when the fines for violations that are discovered are so pitifully small, employers making a simple cost/benefit decision will decide it is in their interest to violate the law."

What I have a hard time imagining is that it is ever a "simple cost/benefit decision" that leads to horrid situations as the one above. Is it ever the case that a board of directors have two flowcharts in front of them: one showing the bottom line if they don't follow the law, the other showing the bottom line if they follow the law. I just don't think people justify such obvious breaches of the law simply because it's more profitable. Moreover, in horrible cases such as the one above, I especially don't think that people justify such immoral/inhuman treatment of other human beings simply because it is more profitable.

For example, in the TAL documentary it is obvious that the Oklahoma plant owners were not only concerned about profit, but they seemed to honestly believe that what they were doing was a *morally applaudable act*. I think someone mentioned that the plant owner justified paying less than minimum wage the Indian workers because without employment from the plant, the workers would be starving in India (that's what the plant owner thought at least).

What I'm getting at I guess is that if it is not simple cost/benefit decisions that are responsible for these situations, then simple solutions such as increased fines will not be enough to prevent situations such as this from arising in the first place.

"is it ever the case that a board of directors have two flowcharts in front of them: one showing the bottom line if they don't follow the law, the other showing the bottom line if they follow the law."

Of course not. That would be stupid.

A question back to you- do you think that upper management did not know what was going on, and what money was being saved?

When they said that they were 'shocked! shocked!', did you believe them?

Jesus, Joel -- are you fucking kidding me?

Not to blogwhore (but Kathy will forgive me), but read this:

http://www.cogitamusblog.com/2008/08/the-war-on-the.html

This kind of exploitation is everywhere in this society. People engage in it for a simple reason -- Greed. The notion that boards of directors and employers do not make cost-benefit decisions about obeying the law is absolutely fatuous and criminally naive.

I once saw a secretly filmed seminar in which a management-side labor lawyer explained exactly how to make these cost-benefit calculations. Happens all the time.

Kathy, This is great - and like you I am skeptical of the Dems willingness to actually solve the problems unless we have a huge movement committed to making them do so. I'd be very appreciative if you would cross post this over at http://www.lavidalocavore.org so we can get some discussion going around this on there. I'll gladly front page it if you do.

Remember this story next time someone repeats that nonsense about how "Americans won't do the jobs that illegals will do."

Which in a perverse sense is true, provided you add the caveat at that pay and with those working conditions.

And yes, Joel, businesses everywhere constantly make the cost-benefit calculation regarding law breaking. One of the consequences of the conservative policy lax enforcement is more rampant lawbreaking.

I think I just lost my appetite for anything but rice and carrots. Thanks for the post. Makes me very sad.

Regards.

Is it ever the case that a board of directors have two flowcharts in front of them: one showing the bottom line if they don't follow the law, the other showing the bottom line if they follow the law.

This “tisk-tisk” skepticism is so naïve, it insults my intelligence. The cost/benefit analysis of whether to obey the law or pay the fine is standard operating procedure across a wide range of industries.

In Florida, for example, building contractors and developers choose to “pay the fine.” Why? The market is driven by buyers who will pay premium prices for land with a water view, and developers will routinely clear-cut protected habitats to offer this "view" and pocket the premium. The fine for violating state environmental protection laws is a tiny fraction of the value of "land with a view."

Wildlife mitigation is another exercise in chicanery and corruption. Developers pay a $50,000 mitigation fee for the right to bulldoze tortoises in their burrows. Ostensibly, collected fees pay for wildlife relocation or conservation in other locales, but the Catch 22 of wildlife mitigation is that the state legislature raids conservation funds to fill gaps in budget shortfalls. Ergo: Habitat destruction without mitigation.

Lets not be naïve about the amount of greed and corruption unleashed by conservative policies whose credo is “less government regulation” but whose hidden agenda is “pirating and profiteering” regardless of who gets hurt.

Companies are often fined much more for environmental violations than for dangerous workplaces.

For instance, after BP's Texas City refinery exploded, killing 15 workers, the company agreed to pay a $50 million fine under the Clean Air Act, but only $21.6 million for violations of workplace health and safety standards.

The Protecting America's Workers Act, introduced by Kennedy in the Senate and Woolsey in the House, would increase penalties for certain OSHA violations.

http://thepumphandle.wordpress.com/2007/10/29/clean-air-act-penalties-at-bp-two-times-osha-fines/

I've heard good things about Kathy G, but then I finally come to one of her posts and I read things like "we need immigration law reform" and I realize that people were raving about her for something other than her thinking abilities.

"Reform" will send a loud and clear message that anyone who comes here and stays for a while will eventually get citizenship. Millions upon millions will respond to that by trying to come here, and many of them will make it.

And, "reform" will give a tremendous amount of power to the far-left, racial power groups, business groups, the MexicanGovernment, and the like. They'll use that additional power to do what they do now: work against enforcement.

The groups that are pushing "reform" now will work against the enforcement parts of that "reform" later.

All of that will lead to millions of new IllegalAliens in the U.S. And, those new IllegalAliens will simply replace the old ones at places like the meat processor, leading to the same abuses.

So, KathyG pretends to oppose workplace abuses, but she can't figure out that what she supports will lead to further workplace abuses.

If anyone wants to know what's really going on with the wider issue, I have thousands of posts spanning several years here:

http://lonewacko.com/

Funny name, but I've forgotten more about this issue than KathyG will ever learn.

NoMoreBlather...you're not even making any sense.

I apologize for coming across as naïve (or for being naïve) and I appreciate people's (Barry, Sir Charles, Low Key, dmbeaster, swampcracker, Liz) responses and references.

Sorry for being harsh, Joelz, but right-wingers frequently use a pretend-naivete to try to slip things in. It's doubly 'funny' here, since Chicago School economics would say that, for all practical purposes the company's management *does* have a spreadsheet listing the cost-benefit analysis of crime.

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